Well, that got ugly

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch) 01/13/2016 at 16:07 • Filed to: Dirtbag shops

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Just talked to the shop who dented my car and he basically just told me “this isn’t our fault cause your gas struts weren’t strong enough to hold up the hood and that’s why it fell on our tool.”

Also that it was my fault for having weak gas struts.

He is offering me $250 to make it go away ($650 in estimated damages). Looking for specific laws in Utah that protect me here. It got ugly on the phone.

Background: took my car to big-o for a power steering pump replacement, got my car back and it had the radiator foam shroud torn and a dent on my hood.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:10

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I would call the local television station and let them send a reporter out to the Big O in question. 5 On Your Side , or whatever.

Needmoargarage > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:11

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Dude, it’s Big-O.

Can a painless dent repair guy help? I had one like that and it came out rather nicely. It was much cheaper than bodywork and a respray.

HammerheadFistpunch > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/13/2016 at 16:11

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Im hoping to just find the law and send it along there way.

HammerheadFistpunch > Needmoargarage 01/13/2016 at 16:12

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went that route, the paintless guy said he couldn’t so I took it to the paintshop and got a bid.

Party-vi > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:13

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He’s offering you money to forget it, he knows they’re responsible. They closed the fucking hood on it. There’s not way your struts would fail instantly.

WiscoProud > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:13

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Didn’t Steve Lehto talk about the liability insurance garages are required to have, in that is basically assumes they’re at fault and will pay out? For something like that though, its not really worth paying a lawyer. I would file a small claims suit against them. If they don't show, you get an automatic judgment. Worst case, you at least would get to argue your case to a third party.

The Snowman > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:14

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Wow a gas strut didn’t work that well when its 20° that’s gotta be the first time in history that’s happened. Big-O sucks. Email Steve Lehto...

HammerheadFistpunch > Party-vi 01/13/2016 at 16:15

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Actually one strut is weak and if its cold it can close without warning...but...as I said to him THEY put the tool on my engine.

Party-vi > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:16

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But still, who leaves their tools under hood of a car they’re working on?

HammerheadFistpunch > Party-vi 01/13/2016 at 16:16

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According to him “every garage in the country”

HammerheadFistpunch > WiscoProud 01/13/2016 at 16:17

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I’m trying to find the legal term for when a garage or whatever accepts your vehicle into their possession or trying to find the specific “garage keepers law” here in Utah.

Party-vi > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:18

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Well he’s the best then I guess. Fuckers.

The Ghost of Oppo > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:18

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Even if the strut some how instantly failed, I don’t think the force of gravity minus the friction the strut would still give, would be enough to dent it like that. Any engineers in the house?

Ash78, voting early and often > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:19

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“Speaking of Big O, your mom’s chicken legs weren’t strong enough and that’s why she fell on my tool” should probably be reserved for the 2nd or 3rd round of argument.

Hope you get it worked out.

HammerheadFistpunch > The Ghost of Oppo 01/13/2016 at 16:20

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oh it would. That hood is long and heavy and its scary when it comes down. I don’t doubt that the strut came down on him...the point is that its still his liability for leaving tools on the engine and or not supporting the hood. This is like them complaining that my frame was slippery and that’s why it fell of the lift.

SteveLehto > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:20

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Look for laws similar to the two which would be helpful in MICH: The Motor Vehicle Service and Repair Act (repair shop is liable for what they do while doing repairs for money) and The Garage Keeper Liability Act (makes the custodian of the car liable for damage which befalls the car while in their custody). I just don’t know Utah Law. Check with local atty.

Good luck.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:21

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Start here http://le.utah.gov/Documents/code… . Either by keyword, or possibly they have a section regarding consumer protections. If you can call the shop up and cite a provision showing they are responsible for damages incurred while the vehicle is in their care it should go a long ways towards getting them to come good on the damages. Especially if you can show that they will be on the hook for legal fees if you have to take them to court to recover the costs. Don’t get in a pissing match with them until you know what the laws are, and don’t bother to threaten them with sending the newspaper/TV after them.

HammerheadFistpunch > SteveLehto 01/13/2016 at 16:22

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I searched for garage keeper and didn’t get anything, but I will try the other. What is the legal term you mentioned once about when a garage accepts your vehicle into their custody. acceptance of goods or something something handshake.

The Ghost of Oppo > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:24

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What car is it?

HammerheadFistpunch > The Ghost of Oppo 01/13/2016 at 16:25

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97 land cruiser.

HammerheadFistpunch > The Snowman 01/13/2016 at 16:29

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That’s the funny part, he mentioned that is they come across a weak strut they prop it up. Its not like they didn’t know this could happen.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:30

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I believe you’re referring to “bailment”.

http://law.justia.com/cases/utah/sup…

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:30

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Might be able to go up the big-o corporate chain? Obviously it’s their fault and they need to make it right. If they were a decent garage they would have called as soon as it happened and told you parts were on their way and it would be fixed.

HammerheadFistpunch > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 01/13/2016 at 16:32

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THANK YOU!

HammerheadFistpunch > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/13/2016 at 16:33

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yeah, they didn’t say it, I had to come back to them. Also, sad story about this Saturday, I will be bearing Paul that day and be unable to meet you.

BigBlock440 > Party-vi 01/13/2016 at 16:35

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Where else do you put them?

The Ghost of Oppo > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:38

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Oh shit, yeah that’s probably a heavy hood. I’m kinda surprised that car would have a gas hood strut

SteveLehto > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:38

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That’s Garage Keeper Liability. Even at common law, this is a bailment. They have legal possession of it and it is their duty to take care of it. If I raise the hood, It’s my job to make sure it stays up - not yours.

Scott > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:38

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They are a business, This is why they have insurance to cover them for these kinds of things. They are responsible for the well being of your vehicle while it is in their custody. Tell them either they pay to get it fixed, or your lawyer will have them pay for your trouble, and the cost to get it fixed. They are just hoping you will agree to take their offer. Steve Lehto has some article on exactly this.

HammerheadFistpunch > The Ghost of Oppo 01/13/2016 at 16:39

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it has 2 and they are massively powerful, but one is worn.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:41

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Shitty.

Bear Paul well my friend. I don’t have a plane ticket yet anyway. The car looked okay in the inspection, no red flags and I still want it, but not for what they’re asking considering what it needs. I’m waiting to see if they will come down on price. If not I’ll move on and they can have fun trying to sell it at that price.

HammerheadFistpunch > SteveLehto 01/13/2016 at 16:41

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That’s the gist of it. So, if you would be so kind as to render general advice, is my best route to bring up the law with precedent to the manager to see if he will be more reasonable, take the case higher up in the big-o hierarchy? or talk to a lawyer?

HammerheadFistpunch > Scott 01/13/2016 at 16:42

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They offered to fix it but the shop that they recommended (A good shop I would trust) advised against it due to the nature and age of the paint.

vicariousILive > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:44

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Let’s test this bitch!

Here is my engineering test plan proposal to you..

Download an accelerometer app to your phone

Adhere said phone to the approximate location of the dent on your hood

Open hood and turn on accelerometer on the phone to begin recording data

Repeat step 3 and let the hood sit by itself and wait for it to fall, backup data

Take the “bad” strut off and repeat step 3 and 4

Take both struts off and repeat steps 3 and 4 (I am not responsible for any damaged wireless devices)

The acceleromters should be good enough to measure the data and from there we can show what kind of loads were seen. What this shows us is how much force the struts place on the hood to keep it up. With my experience with your hood, I dont think that struts are that bad enough to casue the hood to freely fall. I think freely falling with no struts or closing manually are the only scenarios that would result in the dent seen on your hood.

HammerheadFistpunch > vicariousILive 01/13/2016 at 16:46

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Oh it falls, I’ve had it fall in my in the cold. I have no doubt to that part of the story at all...the thing is, it doesn’t matter because its still not my job to keep the hood open, its theirs. And Its CERTAINLY not my fault they had tools on there. They’ve admitted to wrong doing, they just think its somehow my fault.

Future next gen S2000 owner > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:49

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Golf shoes and a kick in the face. That should resolve the issue.

SteveLehto > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 16:53

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See if you can get some free advice from a local attorney. But they (the shop) are hoping you just go away. Document the damages and cost of repair and head up the chain (in writing, very businesslike). If that doesn’t work, sue them in small claims.

HammerheadFistpunch > SteveLehto 01/13/2016 at 16:54

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Sounds great, I know you can’t offer much more in the way of legal advice but you’ve given me a lot to go on.

Scott > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 17:13

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If your fully aware that it can fall fast enough to do this kind of damage, then I have to ask, did you warn them of this? If you let them know ahead of time, then it is entirely their fault. If you kept this information to yourself, I suspect it gets a lot more difficult... time to talk to a lawyer. Especially if you have already admitted to them that you knew this in advance and did not warn them. If it falls fast enough, and hard enough, to but that kind of a dent in the hood, and you new this in advance, they could turn it on you, because it could have seriously injured one of their employees. Thankfully it did not, but keeping that kind of safety information from them, prior to them working on it set you up for a lawsuit had the worst happened.

If you warned them in advance, then it is entirely their fault, and they need to pay for the damages.

HammerheadFistpunch > Scott 01/13/2016 at 17:17

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It was just starting to get cold when I dropped it off to them and I hadn’t had it fallen on my at that time ( keep it garaged), since then its gotten colder and it happens more frequently. However, Its not my liability either way. That like warning them that the gas in my tank is flammable and to be careful with it. I mean if i had done something with intent to harm that’s one thing, but there is an inherent and assumed risk when working on a car...or...for anything really.

Scott > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 17:20

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I don’t understand that? you mean they are telling the shop to fix it in a way the shop does not recommend? It is for sure fixable, and it is not Big-O’s job to tell a third party shop how to do the repair. It is the 3rd Party shop that needs to say, here is how to repair it right and how much it will cost, end of story.

You might talk to your insurance company. I’ve had my insurance company pay for a passengers medical bills because as they said, the other person was 100% at fault his insurance has to pay even though they are refusing, we will pay the bills now, and get our money back from them. Your insurance may fight for you on your behalf to get it repaired. this is when a good insurance company is worth the extra money.

HammerheadFistpunch > Scott 01/13/2016 at 17:24

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I took it to a 3rd party shop that Big-O recommended. I liked the shop and the quality of their work but the owner told me it would be hard to match the paint without repainting the whole hood which would triple the estimate (and the insurance wouldn’t go for it). The truth is that I would rather have a tiny dent in my hood and cash for my trouble than a mismatched hood. The other trouble is that Toyota uses a different paint process on the land cruisers that makes it really REALLY hard so it would be a softer less desirable paint finish.

Needmoargarage > Party-vi 01/13/2016 at 17:29

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Ever own a Subaru with a top mount intercooler? Perfect tool tray. I’d find sockets thousands of miles later.

Party-vi > Needmoargarage 01/13/2016 at 17:43

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That’s like the plastic shield under my E46!

Party-vi > BigBlock440 01/13/2016 at 17:43

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Back on the workbench you silly

Needmoargarage > The Ghost of Oppo 01/13/2016 at 17:46

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I say yes. The hard, sharp edges of most tools concentrate force really well. A large flat sheet metal panel like a hood will easily deform, even if the collision isn’t relatively violent.

Scott > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 17:47

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Well first of all the issue you have described is an unknown hazard, and one that would not be obvious. If someone puts the hood up, and it stays up, and has gas struts they expect it to stay up. Also if it does come down, the expectation is that it will come down slowly. Every gas strut I have seen is either totally shot and will not stay up, or they fall slowly. I’ve never seen one stay in place and then fall violently and unexpectedly. I’m not saying that’s not the case, just I have never seen it, and I have experienced a quite few failed gas struts. the closes I have seen is one that slowly falls until it reaches a certain point and then it falls much faster, but still the falling slow part is a clue that it is not right, and when it did reach the point it fell fast it was not the kind of fast that would do damage had it hit something.

Warning someone of this kind of danger is not at all like warning someone that gasoline is flammable. Gasoline being flammable is a known danger, it is the shops responsibility to handle known dangers. If you had no prior knowledge and can only confirm that it now does this, then yes you are not responsible since you had no way to know. In fact I would be asking what they did to cause this issue.

HammerheadFistpunch > Scott 01/13/2016 at 17:51

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This is basically their logic. Trouble is:

1. Bailment - they took possession of my car for a fee and it was damaged...they are liable no matter how it happened

2. THEY put the tool on my engine that actually caused the damage, its slammed on me since without warning and literally nothing happened because I don’t put tools on my engine.

3. They told me that this kind of failed strut thing happens to them and in the case that it does they prop them up...they knew the risks

4. I didn’t know about it at the time and so the point is moot.

The Snowman > Scott 01/13/2016 at 18:18

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When a third gen camaro hood strut fails the first couple inches are slow then it gets going fast enough to decapitate you. Just depends on the engineering.

BigBlock440 > Party-vi 01/13/2016 at 19:07

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I wait until I’m done using them, but I guess that works too.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 20:00

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Dude you have shit luck with mechanics.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Party-vi 01/13/2016 at 20:01

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Oops.

HammerheadFistpunch > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 01/13/2016 at 20:01

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Yup

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > HammerheadFistpunch 01/13/2016 at 20:03

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Also didn’t know that the LC had has struts. That’s how you know you’ve made it.

Illegitimus Prime > HammerheadFistpunch 01/14/2016 at 05:26

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“I was negligent and damaged your vehicle due to assuming every bit is in perfect working order despite being a person who deals with broken and malfunctioning machines on a daily basis”

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 13:06

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Any developments on this?

HammerheadFistpunch > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/15/2016 at 13:08

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I have a draft email that is intended for them to acknowledge the issue in writing and from there I will remind him of the law and ask for a settlement or a full price repair to my satisfaction (a completely repainted hood). And from there we’ll see. I need to get some specific stuff I left at home before I send it though.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > HammerheadFistpunch 01/15/2016 at 13:11

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I would suggest a written hard copy letter.